Raph Koster's Home Page

The following transcript was made by Carlos Jensen of the Georgia Institute of Technology and is reprinted here with his permission.

Using 3D Graphics in Online Communities: Opportunities and Challenges

An Online Panel Discussion Featuring:

Lili Cheng, Microsoft Research
Wendy Kellogg, IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Raph Koster, Origin Systems
Hannes Vilhjalmson, MIT Media Lab
Moderators: Amy Bruckman and Carlos Jensen, Georgia Institute of Technology

1:00 - 2:00 PM EST in the STS Summer Conference Room (@go summer)

Are 3D graphics in online environments useful for other than entertainment purposes? Slick graphics have for a long time been one of the main selling points for entertainment products, but can they be effectively used in other domains? Games like Ultima Online, EverQuest and Asheron's Call demonstrate that graphical environments can foster a sense of community. Can graphical environments grow and prosper outside the games domain? How will these environments differ from the more traditional text-based systems? What challenges and opportunities do the use of graphics bring to the table?

In keeping with MediaMOO's spirit of exploration, we have set up a graphical server based on Microsoft Research's VWorlds platform. This server has been linked to the MediaMOO conference room, allowing cross-world communication. You will be able to attend the symposium from either server. In order to use VWorlds you need a Windows 98/2000 computer with Internet Explorer 5+. No other OS or browsers are currently supported. Please follow these installation instructions (Allow for 15-30 minutes depending on connection speed).

Please come join us on MediaMOO (telnet://mediamoo.cc.gatech.edu:8888) in the STS Summer Conference Room (@go summer), or on our new graphical server. For more information on how to connect to MediaMOO, please see here

LILI CHENG
POSITION STATEMENT:
The design and structure of the virtual environment impacts the nature of its social interaction. To better understand why some designs and structures support sustainable dynamic social user interaction while others do not, we must make sure we address the unique needs of the specific community. Before designing a user interface or deciding whether or not an immersive graphical world is appropriate, the following key questions need to be addressed: What is the goal of the community? Are users looking for entertainment or are they trying to solve a problem or address and issue? How much attention and time are the key group of community leaders willing to commit to a virtual world? How large is the core user population? How can we encourage trust and accountability? In my experience, the most successful graphical worlds address these issues-- and the graphics play an essential role in answering the key questions.

ABOUT LILI CHENG:
Lili Cheng is a Lead Program Manager in the Microsoft Research's Virtual Worlds Group. The Virtual Worlds group focuses on improving online human social interactions. Lili managed the design efforts for the group's earlier multimedia chat products: V-Chat and Comic Chat, and led the Virtual Worlds platform's creative design team. The Virtual Worlds platform provides users with tools for creating multi-user internet based distributed applications. She also leads the design of a social support research application built in collaboration with the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center.

Previous to Microsoft, Lili worked in the Human Interface Group in the Advanced Technologies Group at Apple Computer. Her projects included UI and applications design for QuickTime VR and QuickTime Conferencing (real time, networked, collaboration software enabling data/audio/video communication). Lili is also registered architect and worked for the architecture firm Skidmore Owings and Merrill designing commercial architecture in both Tokyo and Los Angeles. She continues to contribute to the architecture field as a guest lecturer at the Harvard Graduate School of Design.

WENDY KELLOGG
POSITION STATEMENT:
In our research on computer-mediated collaboration, we are interested in supporting workgroup collaboration by making people and their activities visible to one another, a characteristic of systems that we call social translucence. Our goal is to create computer-mediated collaboration environments that blend synchronous and asynchronous interaction, work and social talk, structured and unstructured activities, and private and public discourse. We hope to provide a digital substrate upon which knowledge communities can grow, where "discoursebases," rather than databases, provide a medium for people to develop, share, and reuse experiences and knowledge, and watch others do the same. Although we are not primarily concerned with a creating 3D or graphical environment, we have made some preliminary explorations into building 3D representations of conversations. From these explorations, we conclude that creating real value for users from 3D representations of conversation will take a substantial amount of work.

ABOUT WENDY KELLOGG:
Wendy A. Kellogg is Manager of Social Computing at IBM's T. J. Watson Research Center. Her current work involves designing and studying systems for supporting computer-mediated communication (CMC) in groups and organizations. The goal is to design an infrastructure for knowledge communities: online conversational systems that support knowledge management and organizational learning and memory.

RAPH KOSTER
POSITION STATEMENT:
Everyone agrees that text is more expressive, richer in detail, and an easier tool for players to use than graphics. Yet the broader audience that is discovering virtual spaces is one with a short attention span and little patience for reading text--much less text that flies by at an astounding pace. We should not forget that every graphical environment thus far as in fact embedded a functional text interface. The immediate challenge for these hybrid systems is therefore to make text as expressive as possible while maintaining the instant immersion of graphics. The secondary challenge would be to bring that level of expressive ability to graphics.

ABOUT RAPH KOSTER:
Raph Koster is known in the mud world as Ptah, former implementor on LegendMUD (telnet://mud.legendmud.org:9999), which has recently celebrated its sixth anniversary as an award-winning mud themed around different time periods and places in Earth's history. However, he is probably better known in the commercial software world as "Designer Dragon", the lead designer for ORIGIN's highly successful graphical mud Ultima Online. Ultima Online recently achieved over 150,000 paying customers, with peaks of over 20,000 online simultaneously. Raph is also an active member of the MUD-Dev list, a regular speaker at the Game Developer's Convention on online community and design issues, and maintains a page of online game design writings.

HANNES VILHJALMSSON
POSITION STATEMENT:
One of the attractions of graphical online environments are the avatars that visually represent users. People use them to graphically portray an identity, allowing them to stand out from or fit into the crowd. People also use the visual presence to manipulate the social space, for instance through physical proximity. Ultimately though, it's the premise of having an actual face-to-face encounter online that holds the strongest lure. However, as much as we would like our avatars to be worthy representations of ourselves, the transfer from user intent to visual action will always be constrained by the control interface. Are current avatar interfaces allowing us to effectively express ourselves in ways that help us reach our goals? Are the demands of a real-time high-fidelity 3D environment making us full time animators as opposed to social actors? In order to understand the value of graphical avatars for a particular application, we must both look at what embodiment buys us for the interaction and how well avatar control can be seamlessly integrated into the interface.

ABOUT HANNES VILHJALMSSON:
Hannes Vilhjalmsson is a Ph.D. student in the Media Arts and Sciences program at the MIT Media Laboratory where he is a part of the Gesture and Narrative Language research group. He works on graphical embodiment in virtual environments, both for autonomous humanoid agents and human controlled avatars, with a particular focus on conversational behavior. In spring 1997 Hannes received his MS degree from the Media Lab where his thesis explored ways to automate the animation of communicative nonverbal behavior in avatars, drawing from existing theory of human discourse and social behavior. Before leaving his native home in Iceland, Hannes worked in industry as a software designer and a technical consultant, specializing in user interfaces and visualization.

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "hmm"

[VWorlds] Lili waves.

[VWorlds] Maggie says, ""puckish avataresque"

[VWorlds] katy says, "good afternoon!"

Mauve_Guest says, "Hello"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "hi gak!"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "hi elizabeth"

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "Hei Reena!"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "heya reena"

[VWorlds] Elizabeth1 waves.

[VWorlds] reenak says, "Hi all"

[VWorlds] reenak waves.

[VWorlds] Shaan smiles

[VWorlds] Lili waves.

[VWorlds] Maggie says, ""hello Mauve_ Guest"

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "lots of familar names on :-)"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "you look very formal today"

Cin has disconnected.

Mauve_Guest says, "Hello Maggie"

[VWorlds] Amy thanks timo

[VWorlds] Maggie says, ": curtsies"

[VWorlds] Raph knows almost no one here... :)

Guest materializes out of thin air.

[VWorlds] katy smiles.

janster remembers raph from last year's meeting about managing deviant behavior

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman laughs.

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Yep, I remember you. :)"

Violet_Guest materializes out of thin air.

[VWorlds] Lili says, ";("

Amy says, "Hi violet. welcome!"

Guest says, "'HIi.Glad to be here"

[VWorlds] Shaan likes Josh's avatar, very cutting edge

Violet_Guest says, "hi!"

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman blushes.

[VWorlds] jellis laughs.

[VWorlds] Shaan especially the use of color... so vivid

[VWorlds] jellis flirts.

Amy says, "shaan, should we wait another minute for wendy, or get going?"

[VWorlds] jellis shrugs.

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman flirts.

Lizzie has disconnected.

[VWorlds] jellis frowns.

Jason says, "hehe, hey there Jellis"

[VWorlds] Lizzie says, "oh no!"

[VWorlds] Lili frowns.

[VWorlds] jellis sleeps.

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman frowns.

[VWorlds] Lili sleeps.

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman sleeps.

[VWorlds] Amy says, "we'll get started in a minute"

Mauve_Guest smiles

Plarry says, "Do people on the VWorlds line see says?"

Shaan says, "yes"

Jason says, "yes"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "yes, plarry"

Shaan says, "says and emotes"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "jinx"

[VWorlds] jellis waves.

Plarry nods solemnly.

[VWorlds] peterw sleeps.

[VWorlds] Lili sleeps.

[VWorlds] Lili smiles.

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman performs an act.

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "wow, pretty good attendance in VWorlds"

Jason says, "hehe, that sounds interesting Josh"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "hi Paula--welcome!"

The housekeeper arrives to cart Cin off to bed.

Violet_Guest says, ":rememfinally remembers his passwed .. brb"

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman says, "Yep, you've got to love that phrasing..."

Violet_Guest has disconnected.

The housekeeper arrives to remove Violet_Guest.

[VWorlds] Hannes waves.

janster says, "shaan, how many on the VW side?"

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman performs a lewd act

Lee materializes out of thin air.

[VWorlds] katy says, "is there real audio available?"

Shaan says, "15"

[VWorlds] peterw sleeps.

Shaan says, "but a bunch of repeats from MediaMOO :-)"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "no audio, katy--it would be cool though!"

[VWorlds] katy says, "Thanks amy - where are you from?"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "Georgia Tech :-)"

Lee says, "hi, i'm back as me but do I "

[VWorlds] jellis poses.

[VWorlds] katy says, "Indiana University"

Amy [to katy]: cool

[VWorlds] Amy says, "ok gang, I'm sure Wendy will join us in a moment"

[VWorlds] katy says, "I always wanted to know how many people you can have in

[VWorlds] Amy says, "I'd like to thank you all for coming today"

The housekeeper arrives to cart Lizzie off to bed.

[VWorlds] timo waves.

[VWorlds] jellis sleeps.

[VWorlds] Lili hands out martinis

Lee says, "err help"

[VWorlds] reenak poses.

[VWorlds] Amy says, "Some of you may notice that our birthday celebration is a bit late this year--its usually on 1/20"

[VWorlds] reenak performs an act.

Lee says, "blast telnet"

[VWorlds] peterw turns around.

[VWorlds] Amy says, "but Carlos cooked up this vworlds/MediaMOO gateway for us this year, which I hope will add something to the conversation"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "and I hope makes it worth the wait!"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "Graphical worlds have really taken off for entertainment applications"

[VWorlds] jellis poses.

[VWorlds] jellis sleeps.

Neon_Guest materializes out of thin air.

[VWorlds] Amy says, "but it remains an open question to what extent they will be used for other applications"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "I'd like to welcome Neon_guest on the MediaMOO side, who is Wendy Kellogg from IBM TJ Watson Research Center"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "Wendy, I was just in the middle of my intro"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "From Microsoft, we have Lili Cheng"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "from the MIT Media Lab, we have Hannes V."

[VWorlds] Lili bows

[VWorlds] Hannes smiles.

[VWorlds] Amy says, "from Origin systems we have Raph Koster"

[VWorlds] reenak claps

Mauve_Guest claps

[VWorlds] Amy says, "I'm delighted that you all could join us today"

Windward materializes out of thin air.

[VWorlds] timo smiles.

[VWorlds] Amy says, "would you each please say a few words about your background?"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "just a quick intro"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "Lili, why don't you start and we'll go alphabetically"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "ok"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "I'm lili cheng from the virutal worlds group/microsoft research"

[VWorlds] katy waves.

[VWorlds] Shaan smiles

Neon_Guest nods

[VWorlds] Lili says, "tim, reena, and peter are also in the group"

[VWorlds] peterw waves.

[VWorlds] reenak waves.

[VWorlds] timo nods

[VWorlds] gak waves.

[VWorlds] Amy says, "lili can you tell folks a bit about your personal research focus?"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "my background is in architecture and the design of public space"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "here at MSFT looking at online social interaction"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "and how different modes of communication and UI affect online interaction"

[VWorlds] jellis poses.

Neon_Guest guffaws at jellis' pose

Shaan says, "you should have seen it with graphics.."

[VWorlds] Amy says, "Probably Hannes can tell us all a good bit about the non-verbal cues that let you know when someone is done with their turn at speaking and how those cues are missing here :-)"

Jason poses.

[VWorlds] Hannes smiles.

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "I'm taking the turn now I guess"

Mauve_Guest nods

[VWorlds] Amy says, "Thanks Lili. Wendy (aka Neon), would you please introduce yourself?"

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "I'm a PhD student at the MIT Media Laboratory..."

Violet_Guest materializes out of thin air.

Neon_Guest says, "'i'm wendy kellogg from ibm research. i manage a group called social computing."

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "My background is in computer science, but here at the medialab i'm working with professor Justine Cassel whose background is linguistics and psychology"

Neon_Guest says, "'we're working on building software to support distance collaboration for workgropus and have a particular slant on doing so that we call 'social translucence'"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "I guess we'll take advantage of the parallelism of the medium ;-)"

Neon_Guest says, "which really means trying to make PEOPLE andt their BEAHVIARIOVIOR more visiable"

Neon_Guest says, "i teyp good too ;-)"

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "We are essentially combining these fields to produce graphical embodiments of agents and online users that behave in a convincing fashion"

Neon_Guest says, "my background is in cognitive psychology and hci"

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "In particular I'm focusing on conversational behavior"

Neon_Guest says, "we are too, hannes"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "thanks Wendy and Hannes. Raph?"

[VWorlds] Raph chuckles.

Neon_Guest sighs

[VWorlds] Raph says, "My name is Raph Koster, and I fled academia five years ago!"

[VWorlds] Amy laughs.

Neon_Guest applauds

Cath materializes out of thin air.

Mauve_Guest sighs

[VWorlds] Raph says, "After completing my MFA in creative writing at U Alabama, I became a game designer making online worlds for Origin."

Neon_Guest says, " (note that there's anything WRONG with that!"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "My first product for them was Ultima Online, for which I was the lead designer."

[VWorlds] Amy smiles.

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Prior to that, I worked with textual environments for a number of years--I probably qualify as a dino by now in the mud world"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "And my research interest is getting 500,000 ordinary people to participate in graphical virtual worlds."

[VWorlds] Raph grins evilly.

[VWorlds] Shaan smiles

[VWorlds] Hannes laughs.

[VWorlds] katy laughs.

[VWorlds] Amy says, "Thanks Raph! What I'd like to do is to invite each of our official panelists to ask a question of another panelist. Then we'll open it up to questions from everyone"

[VWorlds] Raph has thus far only hit 160,000.

Neon_Guest retrats in horrow (just kidding)

[VWorlds] Amy smiles.

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "hang in there Raph.. :-)"

[VWorlds] reenak smiles.

[VWorlds] Amy says, "I think those of us who work with a few hundred or thousand folks at once have a very different experience! Scale is everything"

Neon_Guest says, "i'd love to hear everyone's take on what 3D is really good for -- or even graphical worlds, for that matter..."

[VWorlds] Amy says, "let's start with Wendy's question--raph, lili, hannes: any answers?"

Neon_Guest says, "or is that too general?!!"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "It's good for everything."

[VWorlds] Shaan smiles

Neon_Guest says, "i.e., good for nothing?!!"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "The one thing which text environments do better right now is textual expression."

Jason chuckles.

Mauve_Guest nods

[VWorlds] Raph says, "As a writer myself, i cherish that deeply."

[VWorlds] Raph says, "But every single graphical environment offers textual expression. They just do it badly."

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "The problem is not so much the 3D nature of these graphical environments, but rather how you frame the view into them"

[VWorlds] Raph predicts that it won't stay that way.

Neon_Guest says, "expressive power from text, true"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "Raph there's also the issue of identity play: if you have voice communication you find out who is really 12 and who is not which changes entertainment applications radically"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Well, voice != 3d environment, of course."

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "It is like asking, what good is TV ... based solely on home videos ... we need to produce more quality TV"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "er != programmer lingo for "does not equal""

Amy nods to Raph.

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Voice is a whole other ball of wax. :)"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "Lili, any thoughts?"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "graphics are good for immersive interaction"

Violet_Guest says, "what we want, really, is to breath life into our virtual creations.""

Neon_Guest says, "farir enough, hannes. but i think about claims, e.g., in the cognitive psych literature that 3D might enhance memory (spatial memory), etc."

[VWorlds] Lili says, "we've seen lightweight applications like text based buddy lists take off.."

[VWorlds] Lili says, "I think 3D graphics are especially good when the user want to focus all of their attention"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "but haven't seen many "lightweight" applications that use 3D"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "this issue of lightness seems key. It's actually the theme for the doors of perception conference in the netherlands this year"

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "It will only enhance memory if it makes sense, i.e. if we can make some logical associations between what you see and what you experience"

Neon_Guest says, "i wonder if graphical environments can ever approach the ease of expression of text? of course, we have a lot o practice in using text."

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Most people cannot use text the way we do."

[VWorlds] Amy says, "Is it a temporary state of affairs that 3d is less "light"... or is it more of a fundamental design issue?"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "They can't figure out how to emote, for example. There's a reason why Lili & co put the emoticon/smiley parsing in here to make this work : :)"

Neon_Guest says, "right, amy. that's what i was trying to get at..."

Gray_Guest materializes out of thin air.

Teal_Guest materializes out of thin air.

[VWorlds] Raph says, "The alleged ease of expression of text is a perception caused by hanging around literate readers and writers all day"

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "3D worlds right now basically invite you into a pilots cockpit..."

[VWorlds] Lili says, "right now, it doesn't integrate well into the desktop... it is typically something that is in a separate window... layered onto"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Text is really really hard to use effectively."

Teal_Guest waves

[VWorlds] bart turns around.

[VWorlds] Lili says, "I also don't think 3D is always the best way to give an "overview""

[VWorlds] bart shrugs.

Neon_Guest says, "well, yes & no, raph. it seems to me that most folks do pretty well in net-based conversation. as far as expression goes."

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "Lili is right, an overview, a snapshot of the situation, especially in a social situation we take in a lot of cues from the visual scene"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Most folks being who?"

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "I agree with Wendy. To a very large extent we are used to express ourselves with words"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "for example, architects use plans and site maps when designing building rather 3d models, even for representing spatial infromation... more diagrammatic"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "Wendy, of course your experience is with high tech professionals and Raphs is with a general public audience many of whom are teenagers"

Gray_Guest "Text isn't hard to use effectively, it just is sometimes misinterpe"But they are trained to

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "If any of you have used the avatar toolkit, it takes quite a while to make your custom gestures, whereas typing them in does not"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "I mean folks like my cousins in Ohio. They never write emails longer than three sentences. Most of the emails from them are jokes forwarded from elsewhere."

[VWorlds] Amy says, "raph, what about your average UO member?"

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "Yes, but whats the lenght of your average statement in a real-time environment?"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "I mean folks like the teenagers I deal with daily: for them literate communication is "r u k? kewl, lets go, thx""

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman says, "Actually, it's not that bad, and it's fun to try to be expressive in this new limited medium (making gestures)"

Neon_Guest says, "but is that a text-based limitation, raph, or would they do the same in a graphical expressive language? (whatever that is!)("

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman flirts.

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman performs an act.

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "we do express ourselves very differently in letters, email and chat"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "I also think part of the issue deals with sync vs async communication"

Neon_Guest averts her eyes

[VWorlds] jellis performs an act.

[VWorlds] Shaan nods

Jason laughs.

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Text is slow to input, difficult to get into elegant form, and difficult to parse if quickly input and not in elegant form"

[VWorlds] bart smiles.

[VWorlds] Lili says, "many 3d worlds tend to focus on sync communication, I'm not sure why"

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman says, "Agreed, but that elegance is truly magical when it happens.. from haiku to emoticons"

Neon_Guest thinks raph wshould talk to us more ;-)

[VWorlds] Amy says, "and of course how you use each communication medium is affected by the total sum of media you use on a daily basis. At MIT, most of the undergrads communicate using an instant messenger (zephyr)"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "However, if we can make quickly input, inelegant text (or graphics) become elegant and verbose automatically, exactly like this: :) then we win"

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "but do you think we will ever get the flexibility of text in a graphical system?"

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "I think text vs graphics also has a lot to do with the task at hand"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "so they tend to be more formal when they use regular email than other members of the community who don't instant-message one another"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Remember, every graphical environment embeds a textual one. THIS one does, for example."

[VWorlds] Lili says, "someone said earlier--we haven't seen many good examples of combining text and graphics"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "How many of you are chafing over the constraints in the text input facilities in this client? Show of hands? :)"

[VWorlds] gak waves.

Teal_Guest barks

Neon_Guest says, "we found in our studies of people using Babble (the system we developed) that they also treated email as more formal, amy. babble was perceived as more conversational."

[VWorlds] Amy says, "I'd like to open this up to comments and questions from everyone now--please just chime in!"

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman raises his hand

[VWorlds] Shaan raises his hand

[VWorlds] Amy says, "just jump in, guys"

[VWorlds] Raph chuckles.

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "I agree, every text environment embeds text"

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "Right now everyone is looking at the textual window, you have probably increased the size of it to cover up most of the graphical view, why do you think that is?"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Because no useful cues are coming from the graphical environment."

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "but will we get to a point where at least the emotes will all be graphical?"

Plarry says, "Raph has made the point that text is really really hard to use, but all his examples so far have been (a) that text is not an engaging medium for some and (b) equally applicable to graphical UI's, so I'd like to know what he thinks the proper solution is."

Neon_Guest says, "peripheral vision s--ks? ;-)"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "yes, and only a few people are moving"

Mauve_Guest says, "Hello Teal_Guest"

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman says, "Part of it is phsycial organization... Look how we're spread out and randomly placed.. Not very conducive for conversation"

Cin (frizzled) materializes out of thin air.

Teal_Guest waves to cin

Teal_Guest waves to his wife, the Mauve-Guest

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Plarry, I'm just saying that text, particularly *expressive* text, is too hard for most people to use in a real time environment."

[VWorlds] Raph says, "However, there ARE things we can do to make it more expressive."

[VWorlds] katy says, "scaling is important -how many visitors has MediaMoo?

Mauve_Guest waves to her husband, Teal_Guest

Neon_Guest says, "well, and some of us are in a completely textual version of this hybrid environment. so i'm not even sharing the same experience as all (most) of you"

janster says, "this situation is kind of an exception, because 1/2 are in text-only, 1/2 in graphical, so makes sense that not much graphical is going on, also our purpose is discussion, more than say, performance"

Neon_Guest says, "that's a good point, janster"

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "I are not using the graphical window because there is almost no correspondence between what is happening there and down here in the text window"

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "agree"

Teal_Guest is using MacMoose

[VWorlds] Raph says, "On LegendMUD, we put in a text input system that gave output that resembled prose. Instead of always "Person says, 'Blah." It could output ""Blah," Person says.""

[VWorlds] Amy says, "though that's not the case, say, in UO"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "where the graphical content is primary to what's going on"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "It also handled "Hi!" Person says happily. "How are you?""

janster says, "if we were all in graphical interface, even with same discussion purpose, i'm sure there would be more graphical interaction as well"

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "I feel like I can hardly speak about the graphical window as being a window into the same discussion we are having down here"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "I think for discussion, like this the text is more effective,"

Teal_Guest looks up

[VWorlds] Raph says, "In UO, we used an overhead angled view, and put a person's text directly over their head"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "but in the beginning, we were walking around more, approaching one another"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "What about audio?"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "It made a MASSIVE difference"

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "true, dialog is to separated from the actions taking place in the world"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "There was no text chat box at all"

[VWorlds] jellis says, "Certainly -- but what kind of discussion would be better in a graphical environment?"

janster says, "agreed, lili, depends what purpose of gathering is, informational/discussional vs. entertainment"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Instead, it was more like comics, with a text balloon"

Mauve_Guest says, "Could someone describe the graphical view that those of you in VWorld are seeing? I'm coming in on Pueblo."

Plarry says, "On that point I agree that it's too difficult to make expressive text but (to give you my bias) I think the graphical user interfaces we've seen have the same if not more problems than straight text. So is the answer just better user interfaces for BOTH text and graphics?"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Many users reported greater sense of connectedness to their avatars"

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "So far the graphical views have mostly been used for deliberative manipulation of avatars, but when we are busy typing, who has time to do major puppetry?"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "mauve, we have a variety of avatars that can gesture"

Mauve_Guest likes Plarry's comment

[VWorlds] Amy says, "but mostly we're focusing on the text"

Shaan says, "the Vworlds room is a outdoor scene, a small garden with a house, bunch of avatars standing in random places"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "the gestures are translated into text as well, so you're not missing anything"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "we are standing in the lawn in front of a modern house... the sky is blue and there a trees all around"

Teal_Guest wonders if avatars can gesture as easily as a good typist?

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Yes, Plarry, I think that's the case... for example, if the bulk of your communication is going to be typed, then you should make emotes and genstures and other such facilities avilable via the comman"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "command line also"

janster begs somebody to take some screen capture shots of the graphical environment to post later as images on web site somewhere

[VWorlds] Amy says, "the avatars are pretty much just standing around in a disorganized clump."

Mauve_Guest says, "Yes! Screen snapshots."

Neon_Guest says, "sounds like a real photo opportunity, amy!"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "it's interesting to note that the place has a spacial metaphor, but we're not all facing the panel with them together up on a stage...."

Mauve_Guest says, "I'm interested in how many windows are on the VW, and how they are arranged."

[VWorlds] Amy smiles.

[VWorlds] Raph says, "The phenomenon we're seeing here with position and so on has been observed many times before in 3d environments..."

[VWorlds] Lili says, "but we are all standing in the lawn, basically facing "in""

[VWorlds] Amy says, "just one, mauve"

Mauve_Guest says, "THank you Amy."

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "I think we can start addressing these issues by automating cues and automating camera movement, for instance it would be nice to have the camera shift to the person speaking, I don't have time to"

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "can anyone snap a picture for me, I dont have a paint program on this machine. I'll put it upwith the log of this session"

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "be a camera man"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Exactly, Hannes"

Neon_Guest says, "one of the things we've tried with 3D graphics is representing textual conversation itself. we wanted to create an environment where users can "inahbit" their information."

[VWorlds] bart says, "facing in I think so we can see if anyone is going to do anything"

Lee says, "if we were talking in audio leaving our hands free to pull the stinring on the avatars, would they be more expressive?"

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman poses.

Lee says, "err strings"

[VWorlds] bart poses.

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Think of the obvious leap if doing this: :) automatically made the avatar smile and wave also"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "maybe we should line up near the house"

[VWorlds] reenak says, "You can get a basic idea of what it looks like by going to: http://www.vworlds.org/images/screen.jpg"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "I'd suggest we make a pyramid if that was possible ;-)"

[VWorlds] Elizabeth1 says, "I specifically wanted to be on the outside, so I could see everything by looking in."

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "Lee, but the problem is that humans don't behave by pulling their own strings, there's a lot of things happening that we do spontaneously, without thinking"

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman says, "I don't want to smile and wave... I want complete control (automatic scares me)"

[VWorlds] Shaan thinks Jellis should do his pose again..

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman smiles.

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman waves.

Mauve_Guest says, "Wow, real humanoids!"

[VWorlds] Amy turns around.

[VWorlds] jellis says, "Allright, allright... ;-)\"

[VWorlds] Amy turns around.

[VWorlds] Raph says, "There's a widely used voice system on HearMe.com. Once you go voice, you pretty much ignore the screen"

janster thanks reeenak

[VWorlds] jellis poses.

[VWorlds] reenak says, "thinks this says a lot about Josh..."

[VWorlds] timo says, ";-)"

[VWorlds] Hannes smiles.

Shaan says, "You really have to see that shot later Wendy :-)"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Hannes, that's why i thin kthe answer is to make transparent interfaces. Have the input cause cues and actions that the user isn't even thinking about inputting because they come naturally"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "for those of you who can't see the screen... Josh has a text-based avatar in the graphical world :-)"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Examples would be detecting the smiley faces, going into inquisitive postures when detecting a question mark, etc"

Teal_Guest [Raph]: with gestures a macro?

Jason chuckles.

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "Ralph, I think a lot of interesting cues can be read from speech input, intonation is a great way to control animation of face"

Neon_Guest says, "thanks, shaan -- i'll look forward to it!"

Shaan says, "something like what comic chat did?"

Teal_Guest [shaan]: comic chat? with iconic avatars?

Neon_Guest says, "what does a text-based avatar look like? J-O-S-H?"

[VWorlds] jellis says, "There is some work going on in the gaming industry with folks putting real-time video captures on avatars."

[VWorlds] jellis says, "Would that help bridge the gap between fully automatic gestures and fully user controlled?"

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "Comic Chat was a really cool experiment and many of the things done there can be applied to 3D worlds"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "ok, prediction time. I'd like everyone to please answer. Do you think we'll be using 3D avatar worlds for business applications in 2010?"

Shaan says, "he's a white cube with writing on :-)"

Silver_Guest materializes out of thin air.

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman says, "You got it, Neon.. JOSH B. In black text on a

Shaan says, "all his gestures are written on the cube rather than acted out"

Neon_Guest says, "i think rosalind picard's work at mit is an interesting possibility for getting avatars to reflet at least facial expressions without explicit intervention from the ueser"

Lee says, "we find audio used as primary media for conversation, text used for add precisonion precision"

Mauve_Guest says, "I don't know, possibly. I'm more interested in educational applications."

Gray_Guest says, "at this point text adds more to aunderstanding that 3D"

[VWorlds] timo says, "cinematic camera control and text to facial expressions would add a lot of richness to the world"

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "I don't think that in the year 2010 we will be using the term "3D avatar worlds", we will have a lot of specialized visualizaton tools for group interactions"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "I'm gonna say no for business. we're working on educational apps that use 3D to teach math--I hope those will work!"

Neon_Guest says, "anamy: no, at least not generally. perhaps in some specialized applications."

Mauve_Guest says, "I could see some applications in the Humanities"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "What sort of business applications? The fact is that a 3d environment makes a really crappy UI for things like inventory management, sales, or meetings. Videoconference is likely to be more widespread"

Violet_Guest says, "My interest is also in educational applications--especially for learning science.""

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman definitely agrees that cinematic camera control would be an imense improvement

[VWorlds] Lizzie says, "I'm not sure it's a matter of time - 3d avatars might not be useful in some situations...."

[VWorlds] Amy says, "Hannes, 3D avatar worlds or their technological descendants"

janster says, "i think the obvious market will be (already is?) entertainment (vs. business or education)"

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "I agree, I think that 3D will be used in a number of special areas, but wont be everywhere"

Mauve_Guest says, "Yes entertainment."

[VWorlds] Raph says, "3d simulation environments, certainly, for visualization purposes, demonstrations, etc. Those are widely used already"

Neon_Guest says, "so far the simplest advantage to 3D that i've heard is that it's good for 'performance'-based interactions and/or entertainment. math education is another intruiquing possibility"

Gray_Guest says, "In netnreentertainment there is very little meaningful interaxtion..it is mainly facing your opponent"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "History, archaeology, geography, etc, all can be enriched by visiting virtual spaces"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "I think we will see more business applications that are graphical, but don't think they will be graphical worlds with avatars"

Mauve_Guest says, "Exactly!"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Very incorrect, Gray Guest!"

janster says, "maybe something like Flight Simulator is an embryonic example, aviation game that can be (sort of?) used for real pilot training, at least to some degree"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "more in education"

Jason says, "until 3d worlds reflect more of reality (i.e. the avatars look like you in rl) they won't be used for business applications... when money is involved, I think people want "real", not "virtual""

[VWorlds] Raph says, "First off, not all online forms of entertainment are about opponents--none of the most successful virtual spaces are, for example."

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Secondly, persistent world virtual spaces lend themselves to socializing and community building a LOT..."

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "I don't think there will be a lot of direct descendants, but rather you'll see combined approaches, for instance a merging of video input with graphics, or merging of regular GUIs with desktop avs."

Gray_Guest says, ""I would think that for ed purposes, an avatatODr need not be a real person but a mntor"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "that's an interesting observation, Jason. I think you're both right and wrong. I'm guessing there will be more realistic applications... and also less realistic"

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "I also think that when business is concerned, people are a lot more reluctant to put their avatars in the hand of an automated system, a lot can be at stake"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "where the medium evolves more of its own inner language, different from real world communication"

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman says, "Racial passing?"

[VWorlds] Maggie says, ""yes"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "I agree amy... many business apps are about getting an overview of the right information... like vieiwng a bunch of stock quotes"

Silver_Guest says, "differential equations was easier to understand with Mathmatica so g. can reaallly help in edu."

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Maggie, that seems like an application that is better suited for text, to me anyway. One of the collest things about text ouput is the way in which youc an play with and more easily alter the output"

[VWorlds] gak says, "if 3d became more emotionally expressive - it would be of interest in business - but that's a big if...."

[VWorlds] Raph says, "to reflect different' perceptions based on characteristics of the avatar"

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "I think the most successful 3D worlds are going to be those that borrow from cinema to frame whatever is happening, to catch what is relevant"

macgregor says, "Could one include in the 3D scenario a graphical representation of the stock quotes or other data that one could maneuver through? Using this not just for interaction but another way of sharing info that's not text-based?"

[VWorlds] Shaan smiles

[VWorlds] Raph says, "eg, outputting different text for someone who has different avatar-based characterstics, to give them a sense of what it would be like to BE someone else"

Teal_Guest waves bye and thanks all for the discussion, which Mauve guest is logging, so he can bview later.

[VWorlds] Lili says, "Are you familiar with Ben Schneiderman's 2D representaiton of the stock market?"

Gray_Guest says, ""By the time 3 d gets that good for business they will be ensconsced in the video connected world..."

Teal_Guest has disconnected.

The housekeeper arrives to remove Teal_Guest.

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "well, that would depend on whther there is a need for that type of informational depth (on the stock issue)"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "not sure you really need 3D"

[VWorlds] gak says, "most folks have a hard time dealing intelligently with 2d graphs"

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "agreed"

Silver_Guest says, " i think such methods WILL be developed, just like the models of atoms you can push around"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "MacGregor, the question is whether that's a better way to represent stock quotes than what we already have"

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "Ralph, that reminds me of Micael Mateases subjective avatars..."

Cath has disconnected.

Gray_Guest says, ""or if there is a need"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "we'll wrap this up in a minute or two, so chime in with your final thoughts everyone"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "Hannes, there's a text mud out there, I think it's by Nathan Yospe, which does a trick with love potions..."

macgregor says, "I agree, it's just a random example pulled from the immediate discussion. But other data sets might be analyzed in such a way"

[VWorlds] Raph says, "or an dancing elephant on ice skates"

Jason says, "an interesting point Amy... I wonder what type os social change will be necessary before people are comfortable carrying on business transactions in a virtual space though... I just think people will be more hesitant to begin with"

[VWorlds] Hannes smiles.

Gray_Guest says, "Couldn"

Neon_Guest says, "i look forward to experiencing some really effective collective uses of 3D and/or graphical worlds. it seems that education or entertainment will be where they emerge. i don't think we're there yet."

[VWorlds] timo says, "Regarding whether graphics is good for stocks/business: I think we already know some people are textual/audio inclined and others more visually inclined so I actually think having both is a good thing"

[VWorlds] Amy laughs.

[VWorlds] Amy says, "I'd like to thank you all for coming!"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "Special thanks to our distinguished panel"

Neon_Guest says, "thanks for invited us, amy :-)"

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "I agree, I think the entertainment industry is a very strong driving force, and pioneering force in the use of 3D"

Neon_Guest (still typing blindly, but verbosely...)

[VWorlds] Amy says, "They're all busy folks, and I really appreciate they're tkaing the time to share their insights with us this afternoon"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "thanks amy"

[VWorlds] Lili waves.

[VWorlds] Amy says, "let's have a round of applause for the panel!"

[VWorlds] reenak applauds

Neon_Guest says, "waves goodbye to all fondly..."

[VWorlds] Amy applauds!

janster claps enthusiastically

macgregor applauds

[VWorlds] Lizzie claps.

Jason claps.

[VWorlds] jellis applauds

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "cheers loudly!"

[VWorlds] timo claps

Windward applauds.

[VWorlds] Lili says, "thanks carlos"

Silver_Guest waves

[VWorlds] Hannes says, "Thank you Amy... round of applause for Amy and Carlos"

[VWorlds] Shaan cheers loudly even!!!

Neon_Guest claps back!

[VWorlds] Amy says, "now we'll continue a tradition and have the 8th annual mediamoo anniversary ball"

[VWorlds] reenak says, "woo-hoo!"

[VWorlds] jellis smiles.

[VWorlds] timo says, ";-)"

[VWorlds] Raph claps.

Jason says, "yes, an interesting mix of media, Amy and Carlos"

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "thanks everyone"

[VWorlds] Hannes gives a round of applause

Silver_Guest smiles

[VWorlds] Lili says, "think we should all go up to amy and carlos in the graphical world and give them a big hug"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "and here is where the graphical folks get cheated--we'll meet in the ballroom on the text-based part of MediaMOO"

Neon_Guest says, "uh-oh -- the anniversary ball. will you forgive me that i have to go give a demo right now? i'm sooooo sad!!!"

[VWorlds] Lili waves.

janster says, "ahhh, text rulez at last ;)))"

[VWorlds] Hannes waves.

Silver_Guest says, "thanks everyone"

[VWorlds] Lili waves.

Neon_Guest says, "well, maybe just a sec..."

[VWorlds] Lili waves.

[VWorlds] Hannes smiles.

Jason says, "hehe"

[VWorlds] Lizzie says, "booooooo-and I just got a cool costume idea!"

Neon_Guest says, "how do we get to the ballroom, then?"

[VWorlds] Raph fears he cannot join you...

[VWorlds] Amy says, "I understand if some of you can't stay to party with us--we'll drink a virtual pepsi for you"

[VWorlds] Lili waves.

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman waves.

[VWorlds] gak waves.

Shaan says, "type @go the ballroom"

[VWorlds] reenak waves.

[VWorlds] Raph says, "I'll try to stop back by in a few :)"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "On mediamoo, type @go ballroom foyer"

Neon_Guest says, "thanx"

[VWorlds] Lili graffiti's josh's avatar

Windward disappears suddenly for parts unknown.

[VWorlds] Amy says, "then go into one of the dressing rooms to dress"

Neon_Guest disappears suddenly for parts unknown.

[VWorlds] Raph waves...

Cin (frizzled) disappears suddenly for parts unknown.

You say, "ok, listen to Amy, not me :-)"

[VWorlds] bart says, "@go the ballroom"

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman turns around.

Lee waves .. RL intrusions

[VWorlds] jellis sleeps.

Hannes disappears suddenly for parts unknown.

The housekeeper arrives to cart Cath off to bed.

[VWorlds] Amy says, "I highly recommend the metaphysical pepsi from the bartender"

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "thanks everyone in the VWorlds server, it was really fun"

Violet_Guest disappears suddenly for parts unknown.

[VWorlds] reenak performs an act.

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "except for jellis and his streaking.."

[VWorlds] Amy says, "Let's have a round of applause for Shaan for setting this up!"

[VWorlds] Shaan winks

Purple_Guest materializes out of thin air.

Jason chuckles.

janster claps for shaan!

[VWorlds] Amy cheers!

Jason clasp.

[VWorlds] jellis says, "hehe"

[VWorlds] katy says, "thanks for a very interesting hour!"

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman cheers!

macgregor has lesson plans to write and must leave

[VWorlds] Shaan blushes.

[VWorlds] bart says, "very neat"

Jason says, "good job Carlos"

Silver_Guest says, "thanks, Shaan"

[VWorlds] Lili says, "thinks its unfriendly not to invite the guest into the house"

janster waves goodbye to the vworlds folks and heads to the ballroom

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman sleeps.

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "thank you everyone, I hope you enjoyed it"

macgregor says, "have fun!"

[VWorlds] Amy says, "thanks everyone for coming!"

janster disappears suddenly for parts unknown.

[VWorlds] timo waves.

Amy disappears suddenly for parts unknown.

macgregor disappears suddenly for parts unknown.

[VWorlds] timo has a meeting and sneaks out the exit ;-)

Lee goes home.

[VWorlds] reenak says, "bye all!"

[VWorlds] Shaan says, "smiles, "see you all""

[VWorlds] Lizzie says, "later all!"

[VWorlds] Josh_Berman turns around.

[VWorlds] Lili says, "bye everyone!"

Silver_Guest disappears suddenly for parts unknown.

[VWorlds] jellis poses.

Send comments to [email protected]